Raider Categories => Mods and Accessories => Topic started by: 1badraider on May 02, 2012, 08:11:20 am
Title: raider supercharger?????
Post by: 1badraider on May 02, 2012, 08:11:20 am
Guys I'm finally ready to do some motor mods to my raider and I'm tryn to find a supercharger kit. I'm getting ahold of tejasmotorsports bout a big bore kit and port and polish job. But I really want a supercharger to go with the big bore. I'm a go big or go home type guy and would love to get a supercharger. I've seen the raider paladin did but was never able to get info from him on where or how he got his to work. So any help would be great.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Motorhead on May 02, 2012, 08:29:37 am
Did a google search and came up with this place... http://www.atp-hd.com/gallery/5773642_HyZKk
Vid of a turbo warrior... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM0ufewEl5E&feature=related
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Motorhead on May 02, 2012, 08:45:39 am
I found Paladin post on his SC here... https://www.roadstarraider.com/index.php?topic=8425.45
Magnacharger is the company that makes it. http://www.magnacharger.net/
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: PhysicsDude55 on May 02, 2012, 07:53:27 pm
Guys I'm finally ready to do some motor mods to my raider and I'm tryn to find a supercharger kit. I'm getting ahold of tejasmotorsports bout a big bore kit and port and polish job. But I really want a supercharger to go with the big bore. I'm a go big or go home type guy and would love to get a supercharger. I've seen the raider paladin did but was never able to get info from him on where or how he got his to work. So any help would be great.
You'll surely have to keep us updated on this project.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 02, 2012, 08:55:21 pm
Guys I'm finally ready to do some motor mods to my raider and I'm tryn to find a supercharger kit. I'm getting ahold of tejasmotorsports bout a big bore kit and port and polish job. But I really want a supercharger to go with the big bore. I'm a go big or go home type guy and would love to get a supercharger. I've seen the raider paladin did but was never able to get info from him on where or how he got his to work. So any help would be great.
In order to run a supercharger, you'll need to drop your compression to 8.6:1, which will require new pistons. Since the top end will be off the engine, It makes sense to bore the cylinders and order the bigger pistons for a 120" engine. As far as mileage goes, I get about 40 MPG.
So, this is what was done to the engine; A set of 8.6:1 J&E blower pistons were ordered and installed. The bike was then re-tuned on the Dyno. The results are shown in the chart. Bill Bushling (Magnacharger) machined an adapter plate to allow the supercharger to be mated to the Raider's cam cover. The Magnacharger is driven off of the cam shaft. Next, a plenum was made, and the throttle bodies separated. The throttle body with the throttle position sensor was modified with a new throttle shaft, and adaptors made that would allow the throttle body to be attached to the front of the supercharger, as well as a means to attach an air cleaner to the front of the throttle body. The Raider has two map sensors (both read vacume), so they were left connected to the electrical circuit. However, they are now open to the atmosphere. Then, we had to install an auto-adjustable fuel regulator. At wide open throttle, the supercharged engine, running at 6 Lbs. of boost, requires 85 PSI of fuel pressure. It took about 8 Hrs. on the Dyno, to remap the bike. The results are shown in the chart. Now, the Raider idles like a Harley on steroids. It really cackles. This is due to the positive pressure pulses provided by the supercharger. The supercharger provides the same amount of boost at idle, as it does at the Rev limiter. Also, at night, under acceleration, blue, pencil tip flames can be seen from the pipes. This is because fuel is being burned in the exhaust pipes, due to positive intake pressure in the combustion chamber, and the intake and exhaust valve overlap. The throttle response is absolutely instantaneous. The bike is not for the faint of heart.
If you want to see the unit I used, go to www.magnacharger.net, then click on the Yamaha products header.
A note on the map sensors:
A normally aspirated engine creates most of its vacume at idle, as the throttle plates open, the volume increases causing the negative pressure to decreases through the throttle bodies. The map sensors use this information to adjust the ignition curve. If the negative pressure is high (as at idle), the map sensors keep the ignition curve retarded. As the throttle plates open, the negative pressure decreases. Sensing this, the map sensors tell the ECU to advance the ignition curve. However, with the addition of a supercharger, the negative pressure increases through the throttle bodies as the throttle plates are open. This increase in negative pressure through the engines throttle bodies is caused by the supercharger's constant positive pressure on the engine's intake track. If the vacume lines were still hooked up between the map sensors and the throttle bodies, the map sensors would keep the ignition curve retarded, as the engine tried to build power. The ignition curve is now handled by the PC5. The only problem is a cosmetic one. When the ignition is turned on, the speedo reads a code 26. However, once the engine starts, the code goes away. Everything else works as it should, and the engine starts up as if it were stock.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: silverstreak on May 02, 2012, 11:18:28 pm
Hey paladin, would it be to much to ask for a vid or sound clip of your beast? just a simple idle and a few blips would suffice for a good day. ;D
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 02, 2012, 11:52:50 pm
Hey paladin, would it be to much to ask for a vid or sound clip of your beast? just a simple idle and a few blips would suffice for a good day. ;D
I've had other requests for this. Unfortunately, since I retired, I'm now busier than when I was working. I'll try and get this done, in the near future.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Motorhead on May 03, 2012, 08:09:01 am
Not sure what options for head gaskets their are for the Raider but wouldnt it be possable to get a thicker head gasket to drop the cc's from 9.45 to 8.6? I mean thats not even a full point drop.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 03, 2012, 12:04:27 pm
Not sure what options for head gaskets their are for the Raider but wouldnt it be possable to get a thicker head gasket to drop the cc's from 9.45 to 8.6? I mean thats not even a full point drop.
I'm not aware of the availability of a thicker head gasket for the Raider. Also, keep in mind that even though the compression drop doesn't seem like a lot, you're dealing with a lot of volume.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: busajack on May 03, 2012, 01:47:06 pm
Hey Pete, did you by chance weigh the blower and all components before instalation?? Thanks man.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 03, 2012, 02:27:52 pm
Hey Pete, did you by chance weigh the blower and all components before instalation?? Thanks man.
The blower weighs about 30 Lbs. Because it's so close to the center line of the bike, you don't notice the additional weight. Nor does the additional weight adversely affect the bike's handling.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Tyranus on May 03, 2012, 04:23:59 pm
With Montana lifter buying his Rocket, it prompted me to take a look at them. I found this article where a guy turbocharged the Rocket and also a V-Rod. As I was reading it I remembered Floridaliner talking about the Aerocharger which is what this guy is using but with a different name these days. He might be able to offer an option for the Star line-up if anyone is interested.
"202.8 horses to its rear tire along with 215 pound-feet of torque" Sounds bitchin to me.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: michael t on May 03, 2012, 05:24:52 pm
You know you can buy a Hayabusa add the touring Windshield , Bags , raise the bars a little and still blow those rockets and v rods into the weeds . Turbo a Busa and 300 HP is reasonable . I belive some one here has a turbo Busa . I loved my Busa and main reason I sold was because of a leg injury from 80 's is starting to bother me . The Raider put my leg in a better position for riding. I really like my Raider but I miss the acceleration and top speed of the Busa, The one thing I won't miss is is buying rear tires . It also got better MPG than Iam getting at present. Iam still having trouble with the can't lug this Raider down. I could drop down to 20MPH on my Busa in 6th grar and throttle right back up to what ever speed needed no jerking or bucking . Can't do that on raider . I live in country narrow 10' road lots of turns Raider uses 2nd Busa could do in 6th.
Ok and UT both were uesing Busa bikes on Interstates When I drove That where I first saw one. In OK a state boy passed me like I was stopped on one.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Tyranus on May 03, 2012, 05:47:45 pm
You know you can buy a Hayabusa add the touring Windshield , Bags , raise the bars a little and still blow those rockets and v rods into the weeds . Turbo a Busa and 300 HP is reasonable . I belive some one here has a turbo Busa . I loved my Busa and main reason I sold was because of a leg injury from 80 's is starting to bother me . The Raider put my leg in a better position for riding. I really like my Raider but I miss the acceleration and top speed of the Busa, The one thing I won't miss is is buying rear tires . It also got better MPG than Iam getting at present. Iam still having trouble with the can't lug this Raider down. I could drop down to 20MPH on my Busa in 6th grar and throttle right back up to what ever speed needed no jerking or bucking . Can't do that on raider . I live in country narrow 10' road lots of turns Raider uses 2nd Busa could do in 6th.
Ok and UT both were uesing Busa bikes on Interstates When I drove That where I first saw one. In OK a state boy passed me like I was stopped on one.
That's cool but no Busa for me. Never been into that kind of bike but everyone has there own taste in rides. Glad you had fun on yours and that's the main thing.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: strike 3 on May 03, 2012, 06:03:57 pm
Hey Pete, did you by chance weigh the blower and all components before instalation?? Thanks man.
The blower weighs about 30 Lbs. Because it's so close to the center line of the bike, you don't notice the additional weight. Nor does the additional weight adversely affect the bike's handling.
Ok paladin question.... So, if we the "poor" folks :) wanted to do an upgrade as such. What is the best way to do this to where we dont have to go into engine for upgrades. Be it Turbo...supercharger.... etc. Is there another option for a "bolt on" horsepower package?
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: busajack on May 03, 2012, 06:31:32 pm
You know you can buy a Hayabusa add the touring Windshield , Bags , raise the bars a little and still blow those rockets and v rods into the weeds . Turbo a Busa and 300 HP is reasonable . I belive some one here has a turbo Busa . I loved my Busa and main reason I sold was because of a leg injury from 80 's is starting to bother me . The Raider put my leg in a better position for riding. I really like my Raider but I miss the acceleration and top speed of the Busa, The one thing I won't miss is is buying rear tires . It also got better MPG than Iam getting at present. Iam still having trouble with the can't lug this Raider down. I could drop down to 20MPH on my Busa in 6th grar and throttle right back up to what ever speed needed no jerking or bucking . Can't do that on raider . I live in country narrow 10' road lots of turns Raider uses 2nd Busa could do in 6th.
Ok and UT both were uesing Busa bikes on Interstates When I drove That where I first saw one. In OK a state boy passed me like I was stopped on one.
Agree on top end but nothing launches as hard as a Rocket due to its weight being so far fwd that it holds the front end down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N10raR2ADBE&NR=1
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: busajack on May 03, 2012, 06:49:46 pm
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3838/ ;D 700 HP old busa
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 03, 2012, 10:14:01 pm
Ok paladin question.... So, if we the "poor" folks wanted to do an upgrade as such. What is the best way to do this to where we dont have to go into engine for upgrades. Be it Turbo...supercharger.... etc. Is there another option for a "bolt on" horsepower package?« Last Edit: Today at 07:15:26 PM by strike 3 »
First, knowing what I know, regarding the building of custom, rolling stock, I would not put you in the "poor folks" category. Even with sponsors, your bike is far from cheap.
Unfortunately, if adding a turbo or supercharger, you, at the very least are going to have to add spacer plates between the engine cases and the cylinder bases. Adding a turbo or supercharger will max out the volumetric efficienency of the engine's cylinders (this doesn't happen when an engine is normally asperated), which will raise the engine's compression ratio to an unacceptable level. This is why you need to start out with a lower compression ratio, when force feeding an engine. For every 3Lbs. of added boost, you raise the compression ratio by a factor of one. If you start out with a compression ratio of 8.5:1, you'll have a compression ratio of 10.5:1, with the addition of 6Lbs. of boost. If you start out with the Raider's stock compression ratio (9.45:1), the addition of 6Lbs. of boost will give you an effective compression ratio of almost 11.5:1. When you combine this compression ratio with the Raider's cylinder volume, you'll probably develope engine knock, which will require the ignition curve to be retarded to the point that you'll see very little gain by the addition a turbo or supercharger. Also, the stock pistons aren't designed for this type of application. So, regardless of which way you decide to go, you're going to have to remove the top end of the engine, in order to lower the compression ratio. That and the re-assembly of your top end will be your major expense. To do it right, you'll replace the stock pistons with blower pistons. There isn't a cost increase for the bigger blower pistons (120" kit). The cost of boring and re-plating your cylinders isn't that great. You can always port your heads at a later date. However, you'll be paying for an additional labor charge to remove and disassemble the heads, which could have been avoided, if this was done at the same time you replaced the pistons. I think the best solution would be to save up the money and do it all at once. In the long run, it will be cheaper to do it this way.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: silverstreak on May 03, 2012, 10:16:53 pm
man my cummins runnin 30psi on a 5.9 liter... FUN!
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 03, 2012, 10:37:59 pm
Ok paladin question.... So, if we the "poor" folks wanted to do an upgrade as such. What is the best way to do this to where we dont have to go into engine for upgrades. Be it Turbo...supercharger.... etc. Is there another option for a "bolt on" horsepower package?« Last Edit: Today at 07:15:26 PM by strike 3 »
First, knowing what I know, regarding the building of custom, rolling stock, I would not put you in the "poor folks" category. Even with sponsors, your bike is far from cheap.
Unfortunately, if adding a turbo or supercharger, you, at the very least are going to have to add spacer plates between the engine cases and the cylinder bases. Adding a turbo or supercharger will max out the volumetric efficienency of the engine's cylinders (this doesn't happen when an engine is normally asperated), which will raise the engine's compression ratio to an unacceptable level. This is why you need to start out with a lower compression ratio, when force feeding an engine. For every 3Lbs. of added boost, you raise the compression ratio by a factor of one. If you start out with a compression ratio of 8.5:1, you'll have a compression ratio of 10.5:1, with the addition of 6Lbs. of boost. If you start out with the Raider's stock compression ratio (9.45:1), the addition of 6Lbs. of boost will give you an effective compression ratio of almost 11.5:1. When you combine this compression ratio with the Raider cylinder's volume, you'll probably develope engine knock, which will require the ignition curve to be retarded to the point that you'll see very little gain by the addition a turbo or supercharger. Also, the stock pistons aren't designed for this type of application. So, regardless of which way you want to go, you're going to have to rermove the top end of the engine, in order to lower the compression ratio. That and the re-assembly of your top end will be your major expense. To do it right, you'll replace the stock pistons with blower pistons. There isn't a cost increase for the bigger blower pistons (120" kit). The cost of boring and re-plating your cylinders isn't that great. You can always port your heads at a later date. However, you'll be paying for an additional labor charge to remove and disassemble the heads, which could have been avoided, if this was done at the same time you replaced the pistons. I think the best solution would be to save up the money and do it all at once. In the long run, it will be cheaper to do it this way.
Well, this pretty much solves the case of folks saying we can "bolt" on 'X" amount of horsepower to our motors in stock form. Without the addition of these mods to stock engines, we could potentially hinder performance instead of gain. So..... it looks like the addition of the 120 kit would be a way to go down the road for an increase without going over the top, changing alot and modding other items and making adjustments...... point taken. With that being said.... I see the kits are 1145.00 from Patrick Racing. Is that pretty much everything you need and a bolt on kit and a decent price?
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 03, 2012, 11:12:31 pm
Well, this pretty much solves the case of folks saying we can "bolt" on 'X" amount of horsepower to our motors in stock form. Without the addition of these mods to stock engines, we could potentially hinder performance instead of gain. So..... it looks like the addition of the 120 kit would be a way to go down the road for an increase without going over the top, changing alot and modding other items and making adjustments...... point taken. With that being said.... I see the kits are 1145.00 from Patrick Racing. Is that pretty much everything you need and a bolt on kit and a decent price?« Last Edit: Today at 11:46:49 PM by strike 3 »
With the PR 120" kit, you're getting everything you need. The only "bolt on" HP would be an NOS system. The drawbacks to NOS systems are that they can only be used for a short duration, the bottles have to constantly refilled, and NOS is extremely hard on an un-fortified engine. So hard in fact, that engines running NOS systems have a very short life expectancy.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: silverstreak on May 03, 2012, 11:25:00 pm
Well, this pretty much solves the case of folks saying we can "bolt" on 'X" amount of horsepower to our motors in stock form. Without the addition of these mods to stock engines, we could potentially hinder performance instead of gain. So..... it looks like the addition of the 120 kit would be a way to go down the road for an increase without going over the top, changing alot and modding other items and making adjustments...... point taken. With that being said.... I see the kits are 1145.00 from Patrick Racing. Is that pretty much everything you need and a bolt on kit and a decent price?« Last Edit: Today at 11:46:49 PM by strike 3 »
With the PR 120" kit, you're getting everything you need. The only "bolt on" HP would be an NOS system. The drawbacks to NOS systems are that they can only be used for a short duration, the bottles have to constantly refilled, and NOS is extremely hard on an un-fortified engine. So hard in fact, that engines running NOS systems have a very short life expectancy.
and if not done properly... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0a6QmvfZkI
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Legend on May 03, 2012, 11:44:54 pm
Well Paldin, that's very impressive - glad to hear about the distribution/handling isn't impacted much/at all. I can imagine she pulls hard and care must be taken on the throttle. I second the request to hear once you get a chance. Have you any idea what the 1/4 is? I assume you must know having something that powerful... Very nice bike!
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 04, 2012, 12:21:46 am
Well Paldin, that's very impressive - glad to hear about the distribution/handling isn't impacted much/at all. I can imagine she pulls hard and care must be taken on the throttle. I second the request to hear once you get a chance. Have you any idea what the 1/4 is? I assume you must know having something that powerful... Very nice bike!
I haven't had a chance to run it at the Drags, and probably won't. I know it's quick, just how quick? I don't really know. I do know that the bike will get sideways, snap shifting from 3rd to 4th @ just under 4K RPMS. At the moment, I'm waiting for RC Components to ship me a 61T rear pulley. That way, I can lower my RPMs at cruise, which should increase my distance between gas stops. At my age (62) I'm now more interested in taking some long distance road trips. When I was younger, I was very interested in 1/4 mile trips, but not so much anymore. Keep in mind, I've been at this game since 1965, that's 47 years. I would never say that I've seen and done it all, but I'd say I've seen and done enough. Now, it's time for me to cruise.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Legend on May 04, 2012, 12:28:29 am
I figured as much - regardless a nice bike none the less and a definite head turner. I suspect it would easily spin even at cruising speed as you state. Be safe and enjoy (I know you do) ;)!
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on May 04, 2012, 12:33:38 am
I figured as much - regardless a nice bike none the less and a definite head turner. I suspect it would easily spin even at cruising speed as you state. Be safe and enjoy (I know you do) ;)!
BTW, thanks for the compliments.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: strike 3 on May 04, 2012, 08:51:56 pm
Well, this pretty much solves the case of folks saying we can "bolt" on 'X" amount of horsepower to our motors in stock form. Without the addition of these mods to stock engines, we could potentially hinder performance instead of gain. So..... it looks like the addition of the 120 kit would be a way to go down the road for an increase without going over the top, changing alot and modding other items and making adjustments...... point taken. With that being said.... I see the kits are 1145.00 from Patrick Racing. Is that pretty much everything you need and a bolt on kit and a decent price?« Last Edit: Today at 11:46:49 PM by strike 3 »
With the PR 120" kit, you're getting everything you need. The only "bolt on" HP would be an NOS system. The drawbacks to NOS systems are that they can only be used for a short duration, the bottles have to constantly refilled, and NOS is extremely hard on an un-fortified engine. So hard in fact, that engines running NOS systems have a very short life expectancy.
Okay thanks for the reply. Ill have to sit back and weigh my options.... do I want to put $1200 into this kit....or get a set of bags for the ole scoot, which is prolly gonna total $700 to $800 when completed. Priorities and decisions! :) Or just leave the dang thing alone, ride and enjoy it! Hhmmm. :shrug:
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: r.borders on May 04, 2012, 10:03:48 pm
@Paladin
A) your description of the supercharger was awesome and totally makes me want to do this (although I probably won't ever).
B) I also think you should get a sound clip of that thing, at idle, and a little drive by.
C) Other than the PR kit costing nearly $1200, what was the price after all was said and done, including labor and whatever else there might have been? (if you don't mind me asking :P )
Title: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Pale_Rider on Dec 04, 2012, 12:45:10 pm
Just stumbled across this post. Just gives me another idea for a possible future mod. Nice ride Paladin.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on Dec 04, 2012, 01:13:31 pm
A) your description of the supercharger was awesome and totally makes me want to do this (although I probably won't ever).
B) I also think you should get a sound clip of that thing, at idle, and a little drive by.
C) Other than the PR kit costing nearly $1200, what was the price after all was said and done, including labor and whatever else there might have been? (if you don't mind me asking :P )
Because the supercharger was a "one off" adaptation to the Raider, the cost was around 7K. RangerRick has a sound video of my bike at idle and a "drive by" at the 2012 WARR. I think it may be near the end of the 2012 WARR thread or it may be in one of RangerRick's albums.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Paladin on Dec 04, 2012, 01:14:11 pm
Just stumbled across this post. Just gives me another idea for a possible future mod. Nice ride Paladin.
Thanks.
Title: Re: raider supercharger?????
Post by: RangerRick on Dec 04, 2012, 02:52:26 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK-VICqDinQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OVqU-ZoZuc
Title: raider supercharger?????
Post by: Pale_Rider on Dec 04, 2012, 04:43:46 pm
That bike is beast! Man, I wish I wouldn't have to drop that much cash in one sitting. I'd have to save up for a while to get it but it would be worth it I'm sure.