Tejas Motorsports

Author Topic: PCV setting  (Read 1366 times)

Deyv

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PCV setting
« on: Nov 03, 2012, 12:36:40 PM »
Quick question for the PCV owner's... Does a positive value in the table indicate a richer (more fuel) setting or leaner (less fuel) setting?
  

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t84a

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #1 on: Nov 03, 2012, 12:55:05 PM »
Quote
The values in the map represent a percentage of fuel change over stock. If you see a value of 10 in the map then at the throttle position and RPM range the bike will be 10% richer than stock. If the value was a -10 then it would be 10% leaner than stock. You have the ability to fine tune your fuel curve by altering these values. We recommend leaving this to one of our Tuning Centers as they have the ability to accurately read the air/fuel curve which allows them to optimize the fuel curve for every cell. Without having the ability to read the air/fuel ratio of the bike it is impossible to accurately make fine adjustments to your fuel curve.

zakattak

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #2 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:12:34 PM »
i know its not quite to the point of what your asking but here's how i see it...if the power pro autotune costs $450 and you can sell a PCV for $150....and going to get it tuned is going to cost you at least $215 why not sell the PCV and instead of getting your bike tuned every time you want to F with something,save that $215 and buy a power pro for the excess $85 or $300 however you want to look at it!  and then my wife will get off my back about not spending wisely and you A/F ratio will be perfect!  ;D

Capt_Zoom

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #3 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:16:48 PM »
Quote
The values in the map represent a percentage of fuel change over stock. If you see a value of 10 in the map then at the throttle position and RPM range the bike will be 10% richer than stock. If the value was a -10 then it would be 10% leaner than stock. You have the ability to fine tune your fuel curve by altering these values. We recommend leaving this to one of our Tuning Centers as they have the ability to accurately read the air/fuel curve which allows them to optimize the fuel curve for every cell. Without having the ability to read the air/fuel ratio of the bike it is impossible to accurately make fine adjustments to your fuel curve.

Or just read and utilize my Autotune how to.  With some patience you can do just as good if not better than a tuning center.  Since you have control.  A lot of tuning centers rush through the bikes or put someone unqualified on the job.  Also many are now using a walk away system where they stick your bike on the dyno and walk away while the computer tunes the bike for them...just like your autotune.
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Capt_Zoom

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #4 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:18:12 PM »
i know its not quite to the point of what your asking but here's how i see it...if the power pro autotune costs $450 and you can sell a PCV for $150....and going to get it tuned is going to cost you at least $215 why not sell the PCV and instead of getting your bike tuned every time you want to F with something,save that $215 and buy a power pro for the excess $85 or $300 however you want to look at it!  and then my wife will get off my back about not spending wisely and you A/F ratio will be perfect!  ;D

Because some of us aren't sold on the Cobra power pro.  Cobra isn't exactly known for making bulletproof products like Dynojet is.
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t84a

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #5 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:21:29 PM »
Why would you pay someone to tune?

Capt_Zoom

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #6 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:26:25 PM »
Why would you pay someone to tune?

I didn't.  I tuned myself.  THe autotune unit allows you to do that with more flexibility than can ever be achieved with the cobra unit.  For those with shorter pipes, this can be essential.  For those that don't have the autotune, most of us who do, or who have paid money to get a tune have posted up maps for you for free on this very forum.  Odds are you can find a set up that is within 1% AFR of what you'd pay hundreds to get at a tuner.
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t84a

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #7 on: Nov 03, 2012, 01:54:03 PM »
Agreed. I don't have Autotune and I have a couple good maps. It not like we're doing a lot more than pipes and air kits. The bike is basically stock.

Deyv

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #8 on: Nov 03, 2012, 02:02:38 PM »
i know its not quite to the point of what your asking but here's how i see it...if the power pro autotune costs $450 and you can sell a PCV for $150....and going to get it tuned is going to cost you at least $215 why not sell the PCV and instead of getting your bike tuned every time you want to F with something,save that $215 and buy a power pro for the excess $85 or $300 however you want to look at it!  and then my wife will get off my back about not spending wisely and you A/F ratio will be perfect!  ;D

Money tree is in hibernation for awhile I think to answer these questions.. :)
  

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Deyv

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #9 on: Nov 03, 2012, 02:27:51 PM »
Quote
The values in the map represent a percentage of fuel change over stock. If you see a value of 10 in the map then at the throttle position and RPM range the bike will be 10% richer than stock. If the value was a -10 then it would be 10% leaner than stock. You have the ability to fine tune your fuel curve by altering these values. We recommend leaving this to one of our Tuning Centers as they have the ability to accurately read the air/fuel curve which allows them to optimize the fuel curve for every cell. Without having the ability to read the air/fuel ratio of the bike it is impossible to accurately make fine adjustments to your fuel curve.

http://www.roadstarraider.com/index.php?topic=3249.15
Quote
from: knucklehead on Apr 12, 2010, 05:03:32 AM
alright so i got my mileage  a week and a half ago but when i plugged it in i found that my numbers were absolutely nowhere near yours. I had quite a few double digits and a lot of negatives. so i figured i let it backfire to much and what not, but what to the trim tables actually mean?? if its a positive number then that means it want to richen up that spot and if its a negative number it wants to lean it out in that area? and i did find that their maps are created for las Vegas altitude which is between 3000-2500 feet lower then me, and about 500 to 1000 feet above you capt zoom.


Your response Capt Zoom...
Your trim tables are a % change to the map you loaded.  So a +11 is an 11 increase (more air so it leans it out) to your current maps AFR for that cell.  Riding to avoid backfiring and air reversion is a pain in the butt but its worth it.  Another option is written about in those links I mentioned last week.  If you add a zero to your trim table it tells the autotune not to change that cell.  You can change certain cells to zero if you know that they are causing problems.  Most of the time these are the cells below 1000 RPM, and those in the 0% throttle position.  That same blog also did some testing of maps at altitude and if you create a map at say Sea level, the same map works find in somewhere like colorado.  It doesn't change enough to bother with making a second map.  You'll lose HP just because of the altitude not becuause of the map.  Also when you go to your AFR table at 13.2 is richer than a 14.2 if that makes sense...higher numbers are leaner.

What I would do is either start over using the VH2-2 map as a start or I can even send you my map made for the Wicked curves pipes with modded airbox (drilled).  This will be closer than the cobra swept map even if you have added a BAK.  THen run your autotune over again.

To reduce geared braking and backfiring, pull the clutch when you slow down if possible and try not to go to the zero throttle position quickly.  You can also add zero's into that column so it won't be changed and get fugly.  Basically the first two colums particularly at lower RPMs is where you'll have a lot of bad cells. 

Now I'm confused (again, moreso, whatever :)
One response says positive value is richer in fuel, you'rs says positive value is more air...  bike has V&H 2-1, K/N air filters, fresh plugs, no O2 sensor.  I've updated the firmware (2x) reloaded the recommended map from PCV, and still having popping, backfiring issues.  Would like to get the bike running better, seems to be running richer than necessary,  (I've also tried Flightrisk's map that corrected the problem with him (same bike set up).. I've recently lost approx 14-16% of my fuel economy w/o any apparent reason.

I do not have the Autotune (and the money tree is bare so I don't see getting one in the immediate future.  So far I've read through probably hundreds of responses on the tuning of the PCV and still not any closer to a resolution yet....

Thanks for your time..:)
  

Deyv
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t84a

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #10 on: Nov 03, 2012, 03:22:05 PM »
I have basically the same setup as you and am running the map from Dynojet with no problems and great performance. My post is from the PCV users guide. Zoom may be referring to the A/F table as part of Autotune.

Capt_Zoom

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #11 on: Nov 03, 2012, 04:34:34 PM »
Remember there are multiple tables when working with the PCV.  Its very important to know which you are working off.

AFR is Air to fuel ratio.  HIgher numbers mean more air which is going to be leaner on fuel.  Conversely low numbers mean less air so the ratio drops and fuel, In proportion to the air goes up.  You're not really adding more fuel though.  You can do that on the fuel table.

Fuel table - This is the table that I don't typically mess with.  But you can add or subtract fuel over the stock value.  Most dyno tune shops mess with this value.  They run your bike up to get a baseline.  Then start changing fuel values one at a time and re-run the bike.  If the bike improves the tuning is getting closer...if it drops its getting worse so they will return that cell to its original number.  Its not the most efficient way to tune.

Trim table.  The trim table is generated by the autotune unit (this is an add on part in addition to the pCv itself).  THe autotune unit is needed to actually change values in the PCV.   Trims are +/- values that change your AFR.  So if you stick a +10 in a trim cell when you accept those trims it is going to alter the AFR by +10% and will thus make your bike run leaner.  Negative values will work in the opposite direction and make your bike run richer since they are lowering the AFR.

Remember the autotune unit not only works to create a trim table that you can use for generating a new map, it also works on the fly as you ride.  So once you have generated a map you like the best thing to do is to actually turn the autotune off.  That way it will no longer work on the fly but the map you created will run stand alone in the PCV.  Unlike HDs that are heavily (up to 10% or more) influenced by altitude and barametric pressure the Yamaha 113 is only influenced by about 2-3% (as proven by pro tuner fxstein).  So we don't need an on the fly system running on this bike.

The second reason to turn the autotune off is that it is suseptable to creating overly high or low (think magnitude) trims at points in the RPM range where air reversion is occuring.  Because the autotune is stock set to create no larger than a 10% change they limit this effect a little.  Personally I change this setting to 5% now.  Air reversion can be a real problem when creating your own map.

The trick is to only accept trims once.  THe reason for this is that if you accept a trim that is a 10% change and that change is due to air reversion, then next set of trims created are going to likely have the same 10% trim change in the same cell.  When you accept again, your end product isn't a change of 10% but actually a change of 20%.  I created a procedure in my how-to for dealing with this that has been very successful.  Rather than explain this here if you're interested see the how-to.  I estimate that I help about 2-3 guys a month since I made the how-to so I probably have at least 50 guys on this forum running maps that I've either tweaked or created originally when I still had an autotune (made the mistake of selling mine for cheap to another member once I had my final map....I'd like to find another one for what I sold mine for but haven't had much luck).

Hope this helps...cheers.
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Deyv

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #12 on: Nov 04, 2012, 08:29:13 AM »
OKay, think I've got it now...

Again though, I do not have an Autotune (and don't see getting one in the near future), so I think I only have access to the main A/F table.  Maybe I can send you a copy of my table and if you have time you could look at it and give me your opinion on how it's set..?
  

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Capt_Zoom

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #13 on: Nov 04, 2012, 11:30:05 AM »
OKay, think I've got it now...

Again though, I do not have an Autotune (and don't see getting one in the near future), so I think I only have access to the main A/F table.  Maybe I can send you a copy of my table and if you have time you could look at it and give me your opinion on how it's set..?

Without autotune you may not be able to change those values.  As long as you keep your AFR within the acceptable range 14.2-13.2 (double check those values in my how to) you should be fine.  You wont necessarily make top power but you won't hurt your motor.

This is also very dependent on your pipes. 

What I would suggest since you don't have the autotune, and aren't using a custom made map for your own bike anyway is to download several maps off this site (I also wouldn't necessarily trust fuel moto's maps) and the dyno jet site and give them a try.  Within 30 miles you should know if you like a map or not.  If you can bring a mini laptop and USB cable and change them throughout a ride.  This limits differences due to temp and barametric pressure.  Just go with the map you like.  Consider, power, idle, and popping in your decision.

If you want max acceleration power try this procedure.  Load a map and go to a local straight freeway ramp that cops don't typically frequent.  Giv'er everything its got.  check your speed when entering the freeway.  Then repeat with each other map.  The map that gives you the most speed will likely be best for hard acceleration.  A local 1/4 mile deserted strip can do the same.. just give yourself room to stop.  I can usually hit around 100-110 entering a freeway.

the other thing to look at with the map values.  AFR shouldn't jump around a lot.  Look at the values and they should represent a relatively smooth curve from one value to each surrounding value.  If your jumping from 13.2 in one cell and the adjacent cell is 14.2 it isn't a good sign.  Smooth is good, big jumps bad.
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zakattak

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Re: PCV setting
« Reply #14 on: Nov 04, 2012, 05:29:40 PM »
...and autotune for the PCV is $230? this is why id rather not pay to tune any more and to make it a little more reasonable if you say create a working SAC and say create some pipes in your garage how then else can you tune the bike?