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Author Topic: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using  (Read 2164 times)

Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #15 on: Nov 10, 2012, 05:48:54 PM »
I believe  he refering to the stock air box . 

 Sweet Tooth as I just posted on another thread . I think you need to take you bike to a dealer or a independent shop. Have them find and correct you over rich conditition  and clutch problem. After all that corrected. Then you can think about a fuel controler and air box mod. To start changing things just because every one has them. When you still have unsolved problems. Will just add I think to find and fixing  the present trouble. 
 

Michael is correct.  Before messing with your maps you really want to get everything else working correctly.  Keep in mind though that adding some pipes (usually the short one's) without a fuel controller (if you don't currently have one) can cause an overly rich condition.  This usually doesn't happen with long pipes like the cobra swepts and drags, or VH 2-1. 

If this is what's happening then the fuel controller could fix your rich condition.  Your clutch is another story though.
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Sweet Tooth

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #16 on: Nov 10, 2012, 10:01:26 PM »
I believe  he refering to the stock air box . 

 Sweet Tooth as I just posted on another thread . I think you need to take you bike to a dealer or a independent shop. Have them find and correct you over rich conditition  and clutch problem. After all that corrected. Then you can think about a fuel controler and air box mod. To start changing things just because every one has them. When you still have unsolved problems. Will just add I think to find and fixing  the present trouble. 
 
Yeah. I do plan to get all that fixed first b4 i fool with my intake . I dont want to add another factor into those problems.  Then i will get my controller ;D .
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luvmy68

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #17 on: Nov 11, 2012, 02:19:45 PM »
I'm running the FuelPak but I'm real intrigued with the PC AutoTune.  I'd like more info on it --- is it a true auto-tune (like the factory ECU)?

Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #18 on: Nov 11, 2012, 02:48:13 PM »
I'm running the FuelPak but I'm real intrigued with the PC AutoTune.  I'd like more info on it --- is it a true auto-tune (like the factory ECU)?

The Ecu for the raider is an unprogrammable open loop system.  Open loop because it can make adjustments via the sensors.  But it is very limited.

The PCV can work in two ways.  As a closed loop system where it runs your map without adjustment (the stock ECU will still make some minor tweeks for altitude if I'm correct).  The nice thing with the raider is that the motor doesn't have issues when traveling from sea level to a mountain climate...so a closed loop system can will still work well.

If you add the Autotune, the Autotune will act as a true open loop system, the PCV runs the map, the autotune correcting the map itself as you go (sampling at 80 times per second).  With the autotune your getting everything but air reversion (especially with short pipes) can have an effect on the o2 sensor readings causing the map adjustments to be off in certain cells.  My preference is to only use the autotune to create your map than disable it and run the PCV alone and a static map slightly tweeked by your stock ECU for altitude (even though this tweek isn't necessary).
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luvmy68

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #19 on: Nov 11, 2012, 05:06:39 PM »
I'm running the FuelPak but I'm real intrigued with the PC AutoTune.  I'd like more info on it --- is it a true auto-tune (like the factory ECU)?

The Ecu for the raider is an unprogrammable open loop system.  Open loop because it can make adjustments via the sensors.  But it is very limited.

The PCV can work in two ways.  As a closed loop system where it runs your map without adjustment (the stock ECU will still make some minor tweeks for altitude if I'm correct).  The nice thing with the raider is that the motor doesn't have issues when traveling from sea level to a mountain climate...so a closed loop system can will still work well.

If you add the Autotune, the Autotune will act as a true open loop system, the PCV runs the map, the autotune correcting the map itself as you go (sampling at 80 times per second).  With the autotune your getting everything but air reversion (especially with short pipes) can have an effect on the o2 sensor readings causing the map adjustments to be off in certain cells.  My preference is to only use the autotune to create your map than disable it and run the PCV alone and a static map slightly tweeked by your stock ECU for altitude (even though this tweek isn't necessary).

Okay, so the FuelPak is a closed loop system as well, right?  If it's better to run the Autotune in a closed loop system, why would I want to purchase it?  Is it that much better than the FuelPak (which I'm actually quite pleased with) and if so, how?  The only issue I have is I do a lot of elevation-change riding and I disagree with not much difference...I've always had a very noticeable dropoff in torque at altitude.

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #20 on: Nov 11, 2012, 05:54:01 PM »
I'm running the FuelPak but I'm real intrigued with the PC AutoTune.  I'd like more info on it --- is it a true auto-tune (like the factory ECU)?

The Ecu for the raider is an unprogrammable open loop system.  Open loop because it can make adjustments via the sensors.  But it is very limited.

The PCV can work in two ways.  As a closed loop system where it runs your map without adjustment (the stock ECU will still make some minor tweeks for altitude if I'm correct).  The nice thing with the raider is that the motor doesn't have issues when traveling from sea level to a mountain climate...so a closed loop system can will still work well.

If you add the Autotune, the Autotune will act as a true open loop system, the PCV runs the map, the autotune correcting the map itself as you go (sampling at 80 times per second).  With the autotune your getting everything but air reversion (especially with short pipes) can have an effect on the o2 sensor readings causing the map adjustments to be off in certain cells.  My preference is to only use the autotune to create your map than disable it and run the PCV alone and a static map slightly tweeked by your stock ECU for altitude (even though this tweek isn't necessary).

Okay, so the FuelPak is a closed loop system as well, right?  If it's better to run the Autotune in a closed loop system, why would I want to purchase it?  Is it that much better than the FuelPak (which I'm actually quite pleased with) and if so, how?  The only issue I have is I do a lot of elevation-change riding and I disagree with not much difference...I've always had a very noticeable dropoff in torque at altitude.

Ok. In a nutshell.
1.  The original cobra and Vh fuel pak...total disaster...don't get it...most can't get them to work properly and end up selling them for a loss.  these are the dip switch one's.
2.  The new cobra power pro...open loop system (adjusts on the fly)..new tech for bikes (uses the crank case sensor and other sensors, not exactly bulletproof and there have been a lot of people with problems.  It not a flexible unit from a tuning standpoint...it tunes for you..you do nothing and can only adjust idle on the second version.  Its basically a magic box.  I would not suggest it for really short pipes.  Think of this as similar to your closed look ecu in that its a black box with little adjustment but in the power pro's case is open since it adjusts on the fly.

3.  THe PCV the problem with the autotune is that if you leave it in open loop mode, it will change the base map that you have created with it.  So if you have a map you really like, it'll tweek that away from where you might like it in some cells.  Because of air reversion...especially in short pipes this could lead to big changes in some cells...usually causing your bike to run rich in those cells.  For a better explaination check out my autotune how to.  On my LAC wicked curves pipes and other short pipes like the mortons this reversion is a problem and causes some of the cells to get out of whack.  TO solve this use the PCV to make your map and make adjustments (it adds more adjustable options to the PCV) and then disable it so its not changing your values.

I prefer to run my map, which i've optomized in everyway possible in close loop mode because I like max power.  The little adjustments due to altitude can barametric pressure can be adjusted by the stock ECU.  Even if they aren't one master tuner found that if you optomize a map at sea level (ca) then ride to mountain (co) and optomize that map again it only changed by 3% AFR.  This is well within both the stock ECU and the acceptable AFR range for this motor.  It really says a lot about the robusticity of the Yamaha 113.  You'd never be able to do this on a harley because those motors vary more from sea to mountain level.  Also the jugs on an HD usually run different maps that are about 10% different.  The raider's jugs run about 3% differnent which is why we don't have to do dual cylinder tuning like the HD's do.

Last, with any altitude change you're going to get a drop in HP which also leads to a drop in noticeable torque from your butt dyno.    However, the map to run the motor isn't going to change that dramatically.  Look at the folks who run pikes peak....they are running 6-900 horses just so that when they reach the top of the mountain they still have competitive horse power...those folks are running the same map or carb settings the entire way...the altitude just kills the output of the motor...no way around that.  I guess you could set up a programmer with multiple maps and then manually switch them during the climb but it still would help the output of the motor enough to make it worth wile and the risk of switching your attention to do it worth while.

Hope that makes since.
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luvmy68

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #21 on: Nov 11, 2012, 06:01:22 PM »
That was a really big nutshell.   :rotfl: :rotfl:  I'm guessing you missed my remark of being very pleased with the FuelPak -- I don't have any issues at all with the FuelPak and have no idea what disasters your're referring to.  I was asking about the Autotune as I'm always looking for a little extra seat thump...but not if the cost doesn't justify it.  I think I'll stay with my "disaster" for now until something that I know is better comes along.

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #22 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:16:41 PM »
I think right now the cobra auto tune is new and like anything new has few flaws some people get the flawed one . And some dont. Seems like Capt_Zoom knows what hes talkin about on the short pipes. I hate tryin to jet a bike with short pipes. Agrivatein to get them in the (sweet spot). 
On the PC Auto tune.  Do you have to take that one to a shop to get it done ? Or can u tune it your self the first time ?
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Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #23 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:17:19 PM »
That was a really big nutshell.   :rotfl: :rotfl:  I'm guessing you missed my remark of being very pleased with the FuelPak -- I don't have any issues at all with the FuelPak and have no idea what disasters your're referring to.  I was asking about the Autotune as I'm always looking for a little extra seat thump...but not if the cost doesn't justify it.  I think I'll stay with my "disaster" for now until something that I know is better comes along.

I find that most of the people (at least a dozen if not two) I know who bought the dip switch fuel pack had nothing but problems and couldn't get things tuned just right like those of us with the PCV could.  Eventually they got frustrated/pi$$ed and switched to PCV.  Most of them hated that they couldn't get rid of their popping.  Where I used to ride people tinker constantly.  If you're a tinkerer the fuel pak will leave you wanting.

If you have the fuelpak and are happy with it...keep it.

I figure that with any fuel management system its really about your happiness with the results.  If your happy, save the cash for something else that will make you happy.  But if you're the type of guy who needs or wants every ounce of power our best mpg out of their bike the Fuelpak might not be making you happy.  We also had some problems in Minnesota where the cases were cracking during cold weather riding and winter storage.

Same goes for the power pro.  I'm happy for those that like it...honestly.  Most people probably think I hate it but I don't...I think its rather innovative but I also think it was a rushed.   A touch more refinement such as laptop access to change programming parameters and it would be great.  That and if they bulletproofed the case.

To me its all about liking your own bike and how its running.  If you like it roll with it.
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Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #24 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »
I think right now the cobra auto tune is new and like anything new has few flaws some people get the flawed one . And some dont. Seems like Capt_Zoom knows what hes talkin about on the short pipes. I hate tryin to jet a bike with short pipes. Agrivatein to get them in the (sweet spot). 
On the PC Auto tune.  Do you have to take that one to a shop to get it done ? Or can u tune it your self the first time ?

Read my autotune how to and you'll get an idea if its within your realm of ability.  Making a map is easy...just install, ride 400 miles, and accept.  But that map might suffer from problems due to air reversion.  So I came up with a procedure for making a better map.  Its a bit more involved but with patience most people can do it.

If you don't get the autotune...just try one of the maps we made and posted here.  Try it..if you like it roll with it.  If not get the autotune and make your own or bring it to a tuner shop.

Tip....if you make your own map, using one of the maps we provided might be better than what dynojet does since we can match your setup.  Dynojet and fuelmoto are using a generic map without BAK.
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t84a

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #25 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »
The Fuelpak for the Raider is map based.
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Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #26 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:25:34 PM »
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t84a

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #27 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:27:16 PM »
Link to the PCV/Autotune how to

http://www.roadstarraider.com/index.php?topic=3249.0

I can't get past the bung issue on my pipes. Why would Dynojet use such a large sensor?
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Sweet Tooth

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #28 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:29:26 PM »
I think right now the cobra auto tune is new and like anything new has few flaws some people get the flawed one . And some dont. Seems like Capt_Zoom knows what hes talkin about on the short pipes. I hate tryin to jet a bike with short pipes. Agrivatein to get them in the (sweet spot). 
On the PC Auto tune.  Do you have to take that one to a shop to get it done ? Or can u tune it your self the first time ?

Read my autotune how to and you'll get an idea if its within your realm of ability.  Making a map is easy...just install, ride 400 miles, and accept.  But that map might suffer from problems due to air reversion.  So I came up with a procedure for making a better map.  Its a bit more involved but with patience most people can do it.

If you don't get the autotune...just try one of the maps we made and posted here.  Try it..if you like it roll with it.  If not get the autotune and make your own or bring it to a tuner shop.

Tip....if you make your own map, using one of the maps we provided might be better than what dynojet does since we can match your setup.  Dynojet and fuelmoto are using a generic map without BAK.
I am going with the auto tune either PCV or the Cobra. No where around here tunes the bikes . Or at least none me and my buddies have found . So i am limited to the choices.  If i am correct. The PCV auto tuner you can download to the computer and make sure that your not running lean anywhere. Or am i wrong . And thanks for that link i was just fixin to ask for a link. ;D  Beings i can never find anything when i type in the search thing.
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Capt_Zoom

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Re: What Fuel Controller Are u guys with V&H 2n2 using
« Reply #29 on: Nov 11, 2012, 07:30:22 PM »
The Fuelpak for the Raider is map based.

If you're referring to the DIP switch one...yes there is a map in there but you can only adjust it with a few dip switches.  Its very limited as to how many settings you have.

The PCV you can adjust your map the with several different tables (AFR, Trim, Fuel) of throttle positions and RPM.  You can further manipulate the map by making it based on one cyliner usually the front, or customized for both cylinders.  You can also make individual maps for each gear if you want to.  Then there are the other add-ons like the shift kit, Autotune, and other items to do even more.  Because of the vast number of settings the PCV is virtually unlimited.
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