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Author Topic: Conventional to synthetic....but when?  (Read 2001 times)

thegunny

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Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #15 on: Dec 06, 2012, 02:10:09 PM »
Thanks for the tip Bill. I trust you


silverstreek

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #16 on: Dec 06, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
my vette ZR1 came with synth from the factory...the old you need x amount of miles before switching is a myth. And i use synth on my drag bike and it get rebuilt 4 times a season...just saying

Corvette engines, BMW's, Porsches, Caddy's, my new Toyota Tundra, all come from the factory with synthetic oil as you stated. Synthetic oil use from the factories is getting to be common practice among auto manufacturers now days. Another reason used to be engines came with conventional oils was based on additives used to help break the engines in. Motorcycle engines do run at a higher RPM than do automotive engines right from the beginning. Thus it was more critical to break motorcycle engines the right way allowing the piston rings to seat properly before doing the first oil change.

Now, does this hold true today with metric motorcycle engines? Do they still use a special oil to seat the piston rings? More than likely, No!? But, there must be a good reason motorcycle engine manufacturers suggest the first oil change be done at 600 miles! Maybe the cheapest way to get the crud out of the case? I don't know? However, I have seen first hand, oil changed the first time in many metric motorcycle engines have an awful lot of micro fine aluminum particals within the oil that had just been removed from the engine/transmission case. Being this is not an uncommon sight (I serviced different motorcycles in my shop when I had it going), many don't want to spend the money on more expensive synthetic oils for short change intervals until the old oil no longer has that light sheen to it! In other words, when the oil coming out of the case looks like oil should. Is when I change mine to synthetic.

Personally I am pro synthetic. I have used it in every company vehicle, personal vehicles, and every motorcycle I have owned and serviced since the 80's. Something else to think about? On most metric motorcycles the engine and transmission are lubricated by the same oil. When the lubricating oil is meshed between the gears in the transmission, it goes through what is called shear. This shear causes the viscosity in oils with VII's additives to rapidly break down cutting the oil life in half! Synthetic oils don't have this problem!

Great reasons to switch to synthetic oils. They have a higher viscosity index than mineral base oils. They have a better resistance to thinning at higher RPM's, and thickening at low temps. Synthetics have little to no VII's, so synthetics last longer in service without radical changes in vescosity. Synthetics have a much higher film strength than petroleum oils, so it takes a lot longer to drain completely off your bearings and into your sump.

Note: For those like myself who ride sporadically. This means the oil can all drain completely into the sump, leaving no protective film on the bearings. The first start-up after a long period of non-use can be particularly hard on an engine. Film strength is very important if you don't start and run your motorcycle engine often. Synthetics have superior film strength! All the more reason to switch to synthetics as fast as you can.

Call me crazy? I have done hour upon hour of research on different types of oil for good reason. One of my reasons was I got so tired of these Harley freeks telling me their Harley's can't use synthetic oils because it would ruin their warranty. The funny thing was after arguing with these people for years, Harley introduced their own super expensive synthetic oil for their engines. Now I tell these same people, Harley uses the cheapest contractor to produce these so call specific Harley Engineered oils. So they're still getting screwed? Go and buy Mobil-1, Red Line, Royal Purple, Amsiol and get a great product. They still don't listen! O8O         

thegunny

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Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #17 on: Dec 06, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »
Thanks streek. So did I make the mistake of using yamalube engine oil and royal purple in the transfer case?

silverstreek

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #18 on: Dec 06, 2012, 04:53:22 PM »
Thanks streek. So did I make the mistake of using yamalube engine oil and royal purple in the transfer case?

Wouldn't say that? The transfer case should be fine. I drained my transfer case, and it was clean. The engine case is usually the dirty item! As an example, I owned a new 06 Yamaha FJR. This engine was the absolute worst I've ever seen for fine particles in the oil. I changed it at around 350 miles, and again at 600 miles. It was only after the third change at around 1500 miles that I switched to synthetic oil. I mean I used a good K&N filter each time I changed the oil. Unfortunately that still made no difference at all. Even quality filters can still miss microscopic particles. Thus changing oil early and often!

Try this if you have some spare time? Next time you change your oil on the Raider. Dump the old oil directly from the two oil plugs into a clean open type of pan so you can see the oil (I use a 6 quart cooking pan, or a 5 quart oil container I cut the side out of to drain the oil into). Make sure the oil is settled, and then use something like a popsicle stick or pencil, and gently stir it around. If you don't see any difference in the color, or swirls on the oil at the top (if you see swirls, this indicates contamination)? This will indicate the case is good and clean. Then you can change to synthetic using a good quality oil filter. At almost $10.00 a quart for synthetic ( @ 5.50 quarts thats $55.00, plus another $10.00 for the filter. It starts getting expensive doing early and often oil changes)

Now, the reason I do this open pan collection on every oil change, and regardless of what type of engine it is. I want to make sure there are no early warning signs. I'll slowly dump the used oil from the open pan into a collection container while keeping an eye on anything the oil filter didn't get (which if it's large will be sitting on the bottom of the pan). If there is something rather large? I know there may be a problem getting ready to show it's ugly head. An example of what I'm speaking of is, Harley uses a plastic cam follower in their big evo engines they use for everything but the Sportster models. These plastic cam followers usually last awhile, but sometimes start shedding pieces of plastic before they should. If you pick this up early? You can save yourself or a customer from possible engine damage, or breaking down. Naturally the cam follower will need to be replaced ASAP. But it can keep the rider/riders safe.

After 40 years this is just one trick of the trade. And I'm still learning each and every day!
« Last Edit: Dec 06, 2012, 04:57:03 PM by silverstreek »

SCL#484

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #19 on: Dec 06, 2012, 11:56:16 PM »
Thanks streek. So did I make the mistake of using yamalube engine oil and royal purple in the transfer case?
Hi Gunny,
I am about to change oil on mine too. I bought Yammylube from Yamaha dealer (the guy there told me to get that and NOT even mention about the oil for transfer case and the mileage is a little bit over 2000. This will be my 1st time doing oil change. Where do you fill the oil for transfer case?
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Sweet Tooth

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #20 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:03:30 AM »
Its on the right hand side at the bottom part. When you see it youll know what i am talkin about. Theirs a big sized allen head bolt .  You can take off your pipes . If you just want to . But its not required.
I found a link for the oil change if your hunting for the Engine oil locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjrysVGXkzM
And heres a cheap lift if you feel the need ;D ;D   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJmWU63jfg
Some prefer medicine. I prefer my Raider.

silverstreek

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #21 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:22:03 AM »
Thanks streek. So did I make the mistake of using yamalube engine oil and royal purple in the transfer case?
Hi Gunny,
I am about to change oil on mine too. I bought Yammylube from Yamaha dealer (the guy there told me to get that and NOT even mention about the oil for transfer case and the mileage is a little bit over 2000. This will be my 1st time doing oil change. Where do you fill the oil for transfer case?

As per the Yamaha repair manual, it instructs the service tech to replace the transfer case oil at 600 miles using (0.58 US qt) of SAE80 API GL-4 Hypoid gear oil. Once done initially, the next change is 16000 miles, or 24 months.

Where you'll drain and re-fill the transfer case oil from? Unfortunately this cover is located to the back of the stock exhaust. If you still have the stock exhaust, you may have to remove it in order to get to the transfer case cover, it's drain and re-fill screws?

Honestly, the very best way to properly maintain and care for your Raider is to purchase a Yamaha specific service manual. The same manual many others (including myself) use does cover the Raider/S, Roadliner/S, and Stratoliner/S from 2008-2011. This Yamaha manual directs the owner to proper maintenance proceedures including photos that will give the owner a much better idea of what and where things are.

Even though I've turned wrenches for many years, I would be lost without manufacturer specific manuals. I am so anal that I ordered this manual before I took delivery of my Raider in 2010. Trust me, if you plan on doing your own maintenance and keeping your Raider for awhile? The info provided is better than gold! :D     

silverstreek

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #22 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:28:03 AM »
Its on the right hand side at the bottom part. When you see it youll know what i am talkin about. Theirs a big sized allen head bolt .  You can take off your pipes . If you just want to . But its not required.
I found a link for the oil change if your hunting for the Engine oil locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjrysVGXkzM
And heres a cheap lift if you feel the need ;D ;D   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJmWU63jfg

I'm glad you found something on youtube! I'm not that smart! :o

But, I did learn something because of you today. Always check and remember youtube when my brain cramps!
I appreciate your help ;D 

Mr. T

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #23 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:35:13 AM »
Its on the right hand side at the bottom part. When you see it youll know what i am talkin about. Theirs a big sized allen head bolt .  You can take off your pipes . If you just want to . But its not required.
I found a link for the oil change if your hunting for the Engine oil locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjrysVGXkzM
And heres a cheap lift if you feel the need ;D ;D   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJmWU63jfg

I'm glad you found something on youtube! I'm not that smart! :o

But, I did learn something because of you today. Always check and remember youtube when my brain cramps!
I appreciate your help ;D

He's not either... I think he slept at a Hoilday Inn Express last night....  :rotfl:
 
  July 2009

If we're not supposed to eat animals ... how come they're made out of meat?  ;D

Harley... the art of turning gas into noise without all that pesky horsepower.  ;D

Sweet Tooth

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #24 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:40:29 AM »
Its on the right hand side at the bottom part. When you see it youll know what i am talkin about. Theirs a big sized allen head bolt .  You can take off your pipes . If you just want to . But its not required.
I found a link for the oil change if your hunting for the Engine oil locations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjrysVGXkzM
And heres a cheap lift if you feel the need ;D ;D   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUJmWU63jfg

I'm glad you found something on youtube! I'm not that smart! :o

But, I did learn something because of you today. Always check and remember youtube when my brain cramps!
I appreciate your help ;D

He's not either... I think he slept at a Hoilday Inn Express last night....  :rotfl:
:evil: :evil: :evillaugh: :evillaugh: .
Some prefer medicine. I prefer my Raider.

Kit Sullivan

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #25 on: Dec 07, 2012, 07:45:12 AM »
I went ahead and went with the yamalube and filter. I did put the royal purple transfer case oil in though. I'll switch to synthetic next time... Before it gets too hot here in the desert

...Synthetic oils were first developed to combat jet engine failures due to conventional oil break-down when pressed hard developing high heat at high RPM's. Synthetics cured the failure problems. As a matter of fact, it was a jet pilot (Al Amatuzio) who saw first hand how well synthetics took care of these jet engines on the aircraft he flew. Al Amatuzio decided to introduce the first synthetics to the consumer in 1971. That Company is Amsoil!    Note: I don't sell, nor do I use Amsoil........ But, it is an interesting story to say the least!       

Almost, but not quite: The first type of synthetic lubricants had been invented long before Al Amatuzio's experience, however full PAO (poly alpha olephin) synthetics were later developed and invented by Mobil Oil Coprporation under contract for the US military much later.
The synthetic lubes were used for the manufacture of grease for the landing gear, not for motor (or jet engine) oil. This kept the grease from freezing under low temperatures of flight, protecting the gear upon landing on aircraft carriers. This technology was then later used to also make engine oil for military use. Amatuzio later developed "Amzoil" (original spelling)that went on sale in 1973 (not 1971 as widely reported) from base-stocks he acquired from Mobil. Mobil corporation then introduced "Mobil 1" in '74, seeing as how the new Amzoil was a reasonable seller.
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thegunny

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Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #26 on: Dec 07, 2012, 08:07:51 AM »
Thanks streek. So did I make the mistake of using yamalube engine oil and royal purple in the transfer case?
Hi Gunny,
I am about to change oil on mine too. I bought Yammylube from Yamaha dealer (the guy there told me to get that and NOT even mention about the oil for transfer case and the mileage is a little bit over 2000. This will be my 1st time doing oil change. Where do you fill the oil for transfer case?

The dealer didn't mention it to me either. They sold me the oil, filter and sent me on my way. I read the owner's manual and service manual to find out that I needed to do it and how to do it. I took the pipes off when I did mine. The whole process took a couple of ours for me. Most of that time was spent letting ALL the oils drain. Good luck. Let us know how yours goes.

SCL#484

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #27 on: Dec 07, 2012, 10:15:11 AM »
Thank you guys, for feeding a lots of helpfull info. I feel very fortunated to join this forum. So i guess I don't need changing transfer case oil until 16,000 miles because I had it done at Yamaha dealer at 600 miles services. This time it will be a Yamalube & yamaha oil filter (I already got them couple weeks ago). So my next oil change (at 4000 miles) will be Mobil 1 synthetic & K&N filter for sure  8)
You all have a wonderful day!
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silverstreek

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Re: Conventional to synthetic....but when?
« Reply #28 on: Dec 07, 2012, 10:54:58 AM »
I went ahead and went with the yamalube and filter. I did put the royal purple transfer case oil in though. I'll switch to synthetic next time... Before it gets too hot here in the desert

...Synthetic oils were first developed to combat jet engine failures due to conventional oil break-down when pressed hard developing high heat at high RPM's. Synthetics cured the failure problems. As a matter of fact, it was a jet pilot (Al Amatuzio) who saw first hand how well synthetics took care of these jet engines on the aircraft he flew. Al Amatuzio decided to introduce the first synthetics to the consumer in 1971. That Company is Amsoil!    Note: I don't sell, nor do I use Amsoil........ But, it is an interesting story to say the least!       


Almost, but not quite: The first type of synthetic lubricants had been invented long before Al Amatuzio's experience, however full PAO (poly alpha olephin) synthetics were later developed and invented by Mobil Oil Coprporation under contract for the US military much later.
The synthetic lubes were used for the manufacture of grease for the landing gear, not for motor (or jet engine) oil. This kept the grease from freezing under low temperatures of flight, protecting the gear upon landing on aircraft carriers. This technology was then later used to also make engine oil for military use. Amatuzio later developed "Amzoil" (original spelling)that went on sale in 1973 (not 1971 as widely reported) from base-stocks he acquired from Mobil. Mobil corporation then introduced "Mobil 1" in '74, seeing as how the new Amzoil was a reasonable seller.

Good info on synthetics at www.synlube.com/synthetic (you will have to do your own search as this site won't bring the synlube info up for some reason?) "BEWARE" although great info, this is another typical site for a product called SynLube! The site is titled "Synthetic Motor Oil-SynLube" Anyone interested can gain knowledge and learn the history of how synthetics came to be. This info will shoot down many common myths associated with the arguement against synthetic use.

Kit, you are correct in saying Amsoil didn't invent synthetic oil. My mistake was saying they did. :o Thanks!
To correct myself, Amsoil was the first to introduce synthetics to the market for automobile use in the US. Mobil lost the court battle with Amsoil, which ended up giving Amsoil "The First in Synthetics" Title for the US market. 

   

« Last Edit: Dec 07, 2012, 10:58:51 AM by silverstreek »