Author Topic: Lifters....yet again  (Read 139687 times)

RICE4U

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Lifters....yet again
« on: Jul 16, 2009, 12:57:37 pm »
Everyone,

So, I had a set of lifters go bad on my 09 Raider S after about 1000 mi.  The dealer replaced the two bad lifters, and lo and behold, a few weeks later I started experiencing the same clicking/bad lifter noise.  The dealer, and I, figured that the other two lifters had gone bad.  This would be in keeping with the idea that Yamaha had a run of bad lifters come through.  Brent at Tejas confirmed that the few Raiders that have come through his shop for bad lifters get all four replaced and then have not come back with further problems.  One of the Service guys at the dealership doing the work on my bike said the same thing.  However, once they tore apart my bike to do the lifter replacement, they discovered that the set of lifters they had replace previously were the ones that had failed.  Has anyone else heard of replaced lifters failing on the Raider?


Thanks in advance,

Anthony

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    Re: Lifters....yet again
    « Reply #1 on: Jul 16, 2009, 01:13:40 pm »
    Everyone,

    So, I had a set of lifters go bad on my 09 Raider S after about 1000 mi.  The dealer replaced the two bad lifters, and lo and behold, a few weeks later I started experiencing the same clicking/bad lifter noise.  The dealer, and I, figured that the other two lifters had gone bad.  This would be in keeping with the idea that Yamaha had a run of bad lifters come through.  Brent at Tejas confirmed that the few Raiders that have come through his shop for bad lifters get all four replaced and then have not come back with further problems.  One of the Service guys at the dealership doing the work on my bike said the same thing.  However, once they tore apart my bike to do the lifter replacement, they discovered that the set of lifters they had replace previously were the ones that had failed.  Has anyone else heard of replaced lifters failing on the Raider?


    Thanks in advance,

    Anthony

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    TheOhiomike

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    Re: Lifters....yet again
    « Reply #2 on: Jul 16, 2009, 01:31:30 pm »
    This is the official tech bulletin from Yamaha 2/2/05
                                              TECH EXCHANGE

    Explanation of engine mechanical noise characteristics
    XV1600/1700 Road Star models

    Please use the information in this bulletin to assist you in handling customer concerns about normal engine noise

    Yamaha designed the Road Star to be a very special motorcycle, the heart of which is it's enormous v-twin engine. Our goals were to build a big-bore, high torque engine in the tradition of classic motorcycles that have long been part of the American landscape.  We also wanted it to have the exceptionally clean, muscular lines that without a doubt would draw attention to the Road Star.

    Several engineering decisions were made to accomplish our goals.  For example, we chose traditional no-fuss air-cooling so as not to have a radiator detract from the bikes clean lines.  We chose proven push-rod valve actuation to give the engine it's particular style, as well as it's particular height and weight distribution characteristics.  We also gave it 98-102-cubic inch displacement-bigger than many car engines-with massive internal components like a crankshaft that alone weighs a hefty 45lbs.

    If a customer should question the overall engine noise level, explain to them that certain mechanical operating noises from the engine are expected, and the Road Star is no exception.  It has engine-operating sounds  that are inherent precisely  because of the type of engine that it is.  The air cooled engine design used for the Road Star, unlike liquid-cooled engines, does not have a sound deadening , liquid-filled jacket surrounding most of the sound-producing mechanical engine components.  What is at issue is what are normal and abnormal noises.

    Remind the customer that this is a very large air-cooled engine.  Aluminum and other metal components expand when they get hot, and the engine is designed with operating tolerances to accommodate for this expected characteristic of the metal.  The result is that the customer will likely hear more overall mechanical noises from the engine when it's hot and the oil is thinner.

    Above all, make sure the customer is aware that the Road Star engine is proving itself to be extremely reliable and we are confident that Road Star will deliver trustworthy performance for years to come.  assure them that normal mechanical noises are not the sign of impending engine failure.

    Engine Noise Analysis
    tapping noise from camshaft area

    Normal Noise    READ THIS!!!!!!


    During initial engine start-up, the customer may occasionally hear a tapping noise from the camshaft area and, within a few minutes, the noise subsides.  explain that this is due to extra clearance at the push rod end before the hydraulic lifter is pumped up.  When the engine is turned off and it stops in a position where one of the valves is open, that lifter will bleed down over time due to the constant pressure applied to the lifter by the valve spring.  When the engine is restarted, a small amount of air may enter the lifter and it can take a few minutes for the air to bleed out of the lifter and self adjust to proper clearance.
    Abnormal Noise
    Constant tapping noise regardless of engine temperature - may be caused by what is called a flat lifter.  if the piston inside the hydraulic lifter becomes scratched, the lifter will not be able to hold the compressed oil inside to take up the valve/push rod clearance.  explain that a failed lifter will need to be replaced.

    Ticking Noise from Cylinder Head Area

    Normal Noise
    Explain that a light ticking noise is normal due to the compact air-cooled design of the cylinder heads, which allows the sound of rocker arm loading/unloading and valve-to-valve eat contact to be heard.  Clarify that the ticking noise may increase slightly as the engine gets hot where the engine parts expand and the oil thins down.
    Abnormal Noise
    A consistently loud ticking noise, regardless of engine temperature may be caused by an improper valve clearance adjustment.  Explain that this engine is designed  with 2 intake valves and 2 exhaust vales per cylinder.  The single rocker opens and closes both valves at the same time.  One side of the rocker is nonadjustable and the clearance is self adjusted by the hydraulic lifter.  The other side is adjustable and must be adjusted so the valve contact point is the same as the other side.

    Knocking Noise from Crankshaft Area

    Normal Noise
    When an extremely hot engine is idling, the customer may hear what some describe as a light knocking noise coming from the crankshaft area, primarily from the right side.  The noise is more pronounced if the idle speed drops below 900rpm.  this is a normal engine noise.
    Explain that the Road Star engine is designed to produce very high torque at low engine operating rpm.  Because of this low operating rpm, for the alternator to produce sufficient electrical output to support the system, the alternator is driven off of a jackshaft which is geared to the crankshaft and spins at approximately 2 time the engine rpm.
    As the engine heats up and the aluminum crankcase expands, the gear lash (clearance) is increased between the alternator shaft drive and driven gear.  Inform the customer that, normally, the oil viscosity dampens the gear contact surfaces and helps reduce mechanical noise.  However, in this case, the oil is thin which reduces the damping effect.
    Under these conditions, if the machine is put into 1st gear and the engine is loaded down below 500 rpm with the brakes applied, the described knocking noise will become even more pronounced.  Explain that this is because of several factors.  1st, the ignition timing is set for 900 rpm idle speed.  At below 500 rpm, the timing is too far advanced and causes early combustion which will try to force the piston down in the opposite direction.  2nd, at such low rpm, the oil pressure is also very low which affect the damping effect at crankshaft plain bearings.  Combine these factors  with the slow spinning alternator shaft which is juddering  from the magnetic field of the alternator rotor, the engine will make some mechanical noises.  Reassure the customer that this is common with any engine design and does not indicate excessive wear/clearance of components or impending failure.
    Abnormal Noise
    If the engine is consistently making what is described as a knocking noise regardless of engine temperature or load, convey that it may be due to a bearing or bearing surface failure at the upper or lower connecting rod or crankshaft plain bearings.  if your customer is concerned that a normal operating noise is impending bearing failure, remind him or her that bearing failures get progressively worse in a short time.  if the noise hasn't been getting worse or even seems to "fix itself" from time to time, it's not a bearing failure.
    « Last Edit: Jul 20, 2009, 07:09:04 am by TheOhiomike »

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      RICE4U

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #3 on: Jul 16, 2009, 01:48:42 pm »
      I'm running the Yamaha stuff.  I've been reading a few discussions about running the synthetic oil, and I am planning on switching it out.  This dealership wanted to "run that by Yamaha to make sure it doesn't void the warranty", so as soon as they get their heads out of their a*ses I'll be running "fake" oil in the bike....

      Anthony

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #4 on: Jul 16, 2009, 01:57:46 pm »
      That is crazy, I have not heard of that!  Are they sure it is the same set?

      RICE4U

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #5 on: Jul 16, 2009, 02:37:44 pm »


      That's what the guys told me....both the Service Manager and the Mechanic who did the work....makes me nervous....

      Anthony

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #6 on: Jul 16, 2009, 02:57:27 pm »
      I hope that is the last time you will have an issue with them.  If something else comes up, give me a shout and we can get you fixed up.

      Thanks,

      Brent

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #7 on: Jul 16, 2009, 03:03:17 pm »
      Yeah,

      If I have further problems with the lifters, I'll be taking her up to Tejas for sure!

      Thanks Brent,

      Anthony

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #8 on: Jul 16, 2009, 04:04:49 pm »
      Hey Brent what is the part number for the lifters maybe we can cross refrence them with a chrysler/buick/gm part like we did with the warriors?
      Odd Fire
      Melling Engine Parts
      Part # JB-2011


      They have been doing this over on the Roadstar forum and warrior for years. Shows Mellings JB2011, or Sealed Power HT2011 as replacement lifters for the 1600/1700. Looks like Yamaha lifters are just plain weak.. The V6/v8 lifters should last forever.
      « Last Edit: Jul 16, 2009, 04:12:17 pm by TheOhiomike »

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #9 on: Jul 16, 2009, 04:57:23 pm »
      My raider is 09 with 500 miles and i believe i have a bad knocking sound coming from the top of the engine,  I was sitting at a red light the guy next to me heard the sound and asked what that knock was from.

      I also have some sort of greasy residue on the right side of the back rim after every ride, i have no idea where it is coming from either.

      going to the dealer for first service and to check out these issues,  called dealer on the phone to ask him about the knocking sound, his answer made me mad, he said all v-twins make that sound its normal, my road star didn't, my 105th anniv v-rod doesn't, Ireally hope its not a bad lifter after 500 miles.

      Big MIke

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #10 on: Jul 16, 2009, 05:02:07 pm »
      BigMike, I have my lifters on order. It seems it is a typical problem with the Raider. I first started hearing that knock near 500 miles. Take it in and make them fix it, thats why we have warrenties
      GO BIG RED, ridin da Raider
                           

      bigmike

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #11 on: Jul 16, 2009, 05:22:42 pm »
      Since they used this motor in the statoliner/roadliner are any of those guys having the same issues.

      bhodge

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #12 on: Jul 16, 2009, 06:15:38 pm »
      Let me go look and see if I still have some of the old lifters here.  As far as the lifters being weak, I don't think that we have a problem.  Yamaha just had a bad batch from their supplier.  Looks like it was an error in the casting or milling process.  In general the lifters are not failing due to bad design.  Looks to me like more of a quality control issue.

      Thanks,

      Brent

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #13 on: Jul 16, 2009, 11:22:29 pm »
      My noise is at start up after the bike has been sitting awhile ( overnite)
      It knocks from 30 seconds to a couple of minutes then goes away. I have reaper tips and it sounds like your banging on a car hood (embarrassing to say the least) Can't wait till those parts come in
      GO BIG RED, ridin da Raider
                           

      sfcrick

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      Re: Lifters....yet again
      « Reply #14 on: Jul 17, 2009, 06:30:39 am »
      14,000 miles no problem.....runs like a NASCAR stock car!