Author Topic: Fuel Pump (new idea?)  (Read 2854 times)

SilverStar

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Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
« Reply #15 on: Apr 05, 2019, 11:13:42 am »
The Raider does have a pressure regulator (in left coil cover) and a return line that runs along the lower left side of the tank.

I actually spent over 30 hours putting together a "how-to" for this mod. I was ready to post it on January 2nd but my new PC crapped out as soon as I saved the final draft. I was unable to open,move,or back up any of my data and lost all of it. I intend to do it again,but I haven't had the heart to start over. Plus I figured getting some actual street time to test it before I post wouldn't be a bad idea.

Simply put,the only part that gets modified is the pump housing itself. I kept the OEM pump,bypassed the housing (and the internal filter),and added an external fuel filter. The rest of the bike is untouched.


That simplifies things.  I would think an external pump would be doable.  Probably need to fab a sump on the bottom of the sub tank, and the pump would have to operate in the same pressure and volume range as the oem pump.


Urb, if I can help in any way rewriting your write up let me know.  For those of you who don't have a manual there are several online sources you can get the e-manual.  I used http://mazko.net/docs/bikers/XV1900-RoadlinerStratoliner06-09REPAIR-MANUAL.pdf to verify that Urban is right, not that I doubted him.  The fuel system is in Chapter 6.
"violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."  -  Isaac Asimov

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    ElGuapoLoco

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    Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
    « Reply #16 on: Apr 05, 2019, 08:09:47 pm »
    Quote
    I actually spent over 30 hours putting together a "how-to" for this mod. I was ready to post it on January 2nd but my new PC crapped out as soon as I saved the final draft. I was unable to open,move,or back up any of my data and lost all of it. I intend to do it again,but I haven't had the heart to start over. Plus I figured getting some actual street time to test it before I post wouldn't be a bad idea.

    Simply put,the only part that gets modified is the pump housing itself. I kept the OEM pump,bypassed the housing (and the internal filter),and added an external fuel filter. The rest of the bike is untouched.

    I dom't get this.  People said this "pump housing" was pressurized; that fuel was being expelled from a crack in it, and that robbed the motor of fuel?

    Does this "housing" actually mount the pump?  The pump discharges into it then a fitting (or whatever) in the housing sends fuel through the high pressure line? 

    Heat was said to cause the problem?  They said people that never let the low fuel light come on did not have this problem and those that ran it that low on fuel do?  I have seldom seen that light but there were a couple times while searching for a gas station...

    What's this about the fuel pump getting reduced voltage, regulated by the computer?  That doesn't sound right, to me...  Some heavy-duty electronics would be needed to modulate that much DC current!

    Help me out with the info I need, ok?  What is the correct fuel pressure for the raider?  How much fuel does the secondary tank hold? 

    Of all raiders, how many have this problem?  Is it specific to certain years - i.e. will replacing the thing with a newer one fix this?

    Eye pre c 8 your time passed answering my questions!

    ROADKILL

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    Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
    « Reply #17 on: Apr 05, 2019, 08:41:51 pm »
    Quote
    I actually spent over 30 hours putting together a "how-to" for this mod. I was ready to post it on January 2nd but my new PC crapped out as soon as I saved the final draft. I was unable to open,move,or back up any of my data and lost all of it. I intend to do it again,but I haven't had the heart to start over. Plus I figured getting some actual street time to test it before I post wouldn't be a bad idea.

    Simply put,the only part that gets modified is the pump housing itself. I kept the OEM pump,bypassed the housing (and the internal filter),and added an external fuel filter. The rest of the bike is untouched.

    I dom't get this.  People said this "pump housing" was pressurized; that fuel was being expelled from a crack in it, and that robbed the motor of fuel?

    Does this "housing" actually mount the pump?  The pump discharges into it then a fitting (or whatever) in the housing sends fuel through the high pressure line? 

    Heat was said to cause the problem?  They said people that never let the low fuel light come on did not have this problem and those that ran it that low on fuel do?  I have seldom seen that light but there were a couple times while searching for a gas station...

    What's this about the fuel pump getting reduced voltage, regulated by the computer?  That doesn't sound right, to me...  Some heavy-duty electronics would be needed to modulate that much DC current!

    Help me out with the info I need, ok?  What is the correct fuel pressure for the raider?  How much fuel does the secondary tank hold? 

    Of all raiders, how many have this problem?  Is it specific to certain years - i.e. will replacing the thing with a newer one fix this?

    Eye pre c 8 your time passed answering my questions!
    I'll see if I can cover some of this - since the pump was discharging fuel through the crack it was starving the engine causing missing and stalling
    Whether letting the subtank run low being the cause is just speculation not a confirmed fact
    The subtank holds .8 gal
    Of all Raiders we don't know that because not all owners are on here but there have been numerous on here - no specific year - the fuel pump fits all models plus other Yamaha models and yes there should have been a recall on it.

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      the urban legend

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #18 on: Apr 05, 2019, 10:43:15 pm »
      Let's try to help you understand a bit better.

      The Raider's fuel pump does not get variable voltage. Some cars have that system to reduce pump speed when less fuel volume is needed,and then full voltage under load or heavy acceleration when more fuel is required. The pressure is still governed by a regulator,but the volume is modified.

      The pump housing is pressurized. When the housing cracks,the resulting leak causes the fuel pressure to drop which creates a bunch of driveability issues.

      The heat thing is speculation. People say that running low on fuel causes the pump to run hot and that in turn cracks the housing. The thing is the housing never cracks next to the pump. It always cracks in the same spot,on the side farthest from the pump. I've cut open a housing and the crack was twice as long on the inside,where the fuel filter element is, than on the outside. To me it looks more like a design/manufacturing flaw.

      Fuel pressure should be around 55.7 PSI as per the service manual.

      This pump housing problem doesn't affect only Raiders. Last year I met a guy who said he owned a Stratoliner. As we're talking he mentioned how much he loved his bike,but he hadn't been riding it because it had been running poorly lately. I started going down the list of pump related driveability issues,and he kept saying "yes that's exactly what it's doing". When I told him he had fuel pressure issues,he told me that his mechanic checked it and confirmed a solid 42 PSI... I told him to go back and gave him the correct pressure specifications. I wonder if he followed my advice. They were going to replace his injectors...

      I took this picture to give you a visual. This is the stripped down housing (36k miles,not cracked) from my 08 Raider. The blue area is where the pump normally is. The brown section is the fuel filter element. The red section is where the housing cracks. The yellow arrows represent the path taken by the fuel as is travels through the housing. Everything between the pump and the pressure regulator should be at 55.7 PSI. The rest of the fuel system should not have any pressure.
      I'd rather die on a motorcycle than live without one.

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      the urban legend

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #20 on: Apr 06, 2019, 06:37:29 am »
      Again,in most cases,the problem is a cracked housing...not the pump.
      I'd rather die on a motorcycle than live without one.

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      Fasttimez

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #21 on: Apr 06, 2019, 07:04:05 am »
      Soooo....  have you seen this?

      https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUANTUM-Intank-Fuel-Pump-Yamaha-Stratoliner-Raider-Roadliner-XV19-XV1900-06-17/181289678114?fits=Model%3ARaider%7CMake%3AYamaha&epid=846146725&hash=item2a35b4f522:g:HxQAAOSwVCpcSkD8:sc:USPSPriority!47801!US!-1
      It's NOT the electronic pump that goes bad......it's the black plastic fuel reservoir on the pump housing that cracks.  Here's a video I did of mine showing the crack.  Notice when I squeeze the hose simulating pressure in the system, fuel sprays out of the crack in the plastic housing......
      https://youtu.be/6iFQLv46YkI

      ElGuapoLoco

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #22 on: Apr 06, 2019, 08:00:03 am »
      Soooo....  have you seen this?

      https://www.ebay.com/itm/QUANTUM-Intank-Fuel-Pump-Yamaha-Stratoliner-Raider-Roadliner-XV19-XV1900-06-17/181289678114?fits=Model%3ARaider%7CMake%3AYamaha&epid=846146725&hash=item2a35b4f522:g:HxQAAOSwVCpcSkD8:sc:USPSPriority!47801!US!-1
      It's NOT the electronic pump that goes bad......it's the black plastic fuel reservoir on the pump housing that cracks.  Here's a video I did of mine showing the crack.  Notice when I squeeze the hose simulating pressure in the system, fuel sprays out of the crack in the plastic housing......
      https://youtu.be/6iFQLv46YkI

      Yeah man - I'm getting it.  But, according to this parts fische, the plastic reservoir is not available.  They sell the whole thing, from the top plate to the bottom, as a unit - or not at all.

      https://www.stadiumyamaha.com/oemparts/a/yam/50046f5ef8700209bc79725d/fuel-tank-2

      It seems to me after you part with your $450 you still might have the same problem...

      What I'm about is a reliable fix.  I don't want to be looking at nightfall over the continental divide in the rockies with a dead bike!  Do you? 

      Now...  in my mind, we need to TRASH the trash - the stupidly made thing we have - and convert this into something that has no plastic reservoir and works just like anything else with an in-tank, efi fuel pump.  I don't care if I use an inline pump or an in tank pump but I want RID of the thing that fails.

      When I think about WHY this bike has the plastic reservoir, the only guess I can make is it keeps fuel around the pump... presumably to cool it?  Maybe I'm still missing something but I AM trying, OK? 

      The secondary tank poses a problem not present in a standard installation - that being if the bike runs low enough on fuel to partially empty it, air will get into the secondary tank.  How does the stock setup deal with that and how does the plastic reservoir help?

      That ebay posting claims to fit.  MAYBE they have done what we are trying to do, here, and now offer to sell the results.  Why re-invent the wheel?

      Obviously, I have not been thinking about this as long as you have.  I appreciate your help.  But afro-engineering is not my thing...  I need my bike to be rock solid - not some plastic welded deal.  If my wife and I are stranded by the side of the road, somewhere, somebody might stop and hurt or kill us.
      « Last Edit: Apr 06, 2019, 08:06:45 am by ElGuapoLoco »

      ROADKILL

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #23 on: Apr 06, 2019, 09:47:24 am »
      I understand your concerns fortunately the fuel pump will let you know it's going bad -  you'll get an occasional loss of power or it will stall or basically it starts running like crap - it doesn't just stop work all of a sudden.


      ElGuapoLoco

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #24 on: Apr 06, 2019, 11:41:07 am »
      I understand your concerns fortunately the fuel pump will let you know it's going bad -  you'll get an occasional loss of power or it will stall or basically it starts running like crap - it doesn't just stop work all of a sudden.

      Thanks, man.

      Let's all work on this and put it to bed, for good?

      seventhLetter

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #25 on: Apr 06, 2019, 12:09:52 pm »
      I have an '08.  Had to replace the fuel pump at 35,000 many years ago.  Haven't had the problem since (not yet anyway) and I baby the secondary tank by making sure it always has fuel in it.  (i.e. I try to fill up around 100 miles when possible)

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      Coldfinger

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #26 on: Apr 07, 2019, 08:36:50 pm »
      I came across this Yamaha video which describes how their fuel injection works. 

      https://youtu.be/fujeAFAjb4A

      At approx 5:15 I believe he is describing how the Raider fuel pump works, with pressure being regulated in the pump, which would explain why the housing is necessary. ???
      « Last Edit: Apr 07, 2019, 08:42:54 pm by Coldfinger »

      the urban legend

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #27 on: Apr 08, 2019, 05:52:44 am »
      I came across this Yamaha video which describes how their fuel injection works. 

      https://youtu.be/fujeAFAjb4A

      At approx 5:15 I believe he is describing how the Raider fuel pump works, with pressure being regulated in the pump, which would explain why the housing is necessary. ???

      The Raider uses an external pressure regulator as in the first example (return type system). The regulator is located behind the left coil cover.
      I'd rather die on a motorcycle than live without one.

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      TTE

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #28 on: Apr 13, 2019, 10:21:22 am »
      I don't know exactly what the fuel pump and housing look like, nor what the housing is made of.
      With that being said, .... would something like this work to fix the housing ?



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      ROADKILL

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      Re: Fuel Pump (new idea?)
      « Reply #29 on: Apr 13, 2019, 10:26:31 am »
      I don't know exactly what the fuel pump and housing look like, nor what the housing is made of.
      With that being said, .... would something like this work to fix the housing ?



      <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRCMIDILfEI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRCMIDILfEI</a>
      ttiwwp
      The housing is made out of plastic