Author Topic: 12 volt power  (Read 20009 times)

TRaider_John

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Re: 12 volt power
« Reply #15 on: Sep 06, 2010, 06:59:37 pm »
It is a Technical Discussion in the technical discussion area.  If you can't handle it, don't read it.

RoadStarRaider

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    Re: 12 volt power
    « Reply #16 on: Sep 06, 2010, 07:01:54 pm »
    Huh  ???
    I tried to read this and just felt dumper (than usual)...I will stay in the debate room and look at pics from now on  ;D
    :agree: :shrug:


     :agree: :givemebeer: :ihntasiajptrmpc: :cheers:

    Metric

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    Re: 12 volt power
    « Reply #17 on: Sep 06, 2010, 08:59:32 pm »
    Thank TRJ..  can always count on you
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      Skidmark

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #18 on: Sep 06, 2010, 10:12:10 pm »
      do you have solid mount saddle bags? you cant mount another battery in the bags, i hooked up two 12s with a 600W amp in my truck and whenever it would hit the headlights and gauges would dim because it was pulling so much power out of the battery, i added a small motorcycle battery and now i have no issues with it. same principle with your heated gear.
      If you cant fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.
      "Harley Davidsons have the unique ability to convert gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower...."

      ManiZ

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #19 on: Dec 26, 2010, 01:07:03 am »
      Reviving this thread. I found it by accident while searching the model# of our bike's F4T38971 alternator model as mentioned in the service manual (need to check manufacturer's provided specs). TRaider_John's mention of that model caused a Google hit and I ended up here.

      I have now found the answer on how much power our Raider's produce and how much of that is usable with electric accessories like heated clothing. As much research as I did on heated clothing, it never dawned on me that a bike's ability to power it isn't a given.

      I was about to pull the trigger on a host of Gerbing's items when I noticed this note on their web site:

      Powering your products through a 12-volt electrical system:
      When powering your heated clothing through the 12-volt electrical system of a vehicle you should be sure that your vehicle’s electrical system can handle the electrical draw. To help make the determination, you should find out your vehicle’s maximum electrical output capacity in watts and then subtract that from the wattage draw when all of your vehicle’s electrical components are working. The remaining wattage number is what remains to operate additional electrical accessories such as our heated clothing.


      Gerbing's web site is great with the amount of detail it includes on every product, including its amp and wattage requirement. What they don't mention (but I'll bet is the case) is that those power requirements are at the max setting on the temp controller. From what I have read online, no one seems to turn the controller at more than 50% setting due to their effectiveness.

      WebBikeWorld's review of the Gerbing jacket liner (at http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/heated-jacket/) is another great read. They say they couldn't get it to perform well with bikes producing less than 300W. They also include the formula: Wattage = Voltage x Amperage

      Based on the electrical specs of our Raiders from the repair manual, applying the above formula gives us 14V x 32 = 448 Watts. That's the total wattage of our bikes.

      Also from the repair manual, here are the power requirements of the Raider:

      Headlight (High): 55W
      Running lights: 8W X 2
      Turn signals/front: 23W X2
      Turn signals/rear: 21W X 2
      Tail light: LED (negligible)
      License plate: 3.8W
      Gauges: LED (negligible)
      Horn: Not listed
      EFI system: Not listed

      TOTAL: 162.8 Watts

      So applying Gerbing's advice mentioned above, that leaves us with 448 - 162.8 = 285.2 Watts available. That is a MASSIVE amount of reserve electrical power. The manual does not mention the power needs of the EFI system but I assume that the starter takes the bulk of that but since it is only needed to start the bike and accessories aren't drawing power at the time, it can be ignored. I do wish the rest of the EFI system's (fuel pump etc.) rating was available though, but let's first see how much power the Gerbing gear takes:

      Jacket liner: 77W
      Gloves: 27W
      Pant liner: 44W
      Insoles: 15W
      TOTAL: 177 Watts

      So that means that even with full heated gear at its highest setting, the Raider's electrical output can handle it very easily and leave enough for the EFI system, a pair of driving lights, GPS, etc.

      And although the 448W number from the service manual is based on 5000 RPM, don't forget that the Gerbing gear would actually draw a lot less power because everyone seems to set the temp controller/s well below 100% level. So the two should cancel each other out for the most part even if the road conditions don't allow one to maintain enough bike speed to keep the engine speed at or above 5000 RPM in any given gear.

      I can now order my heated gear in peace!
      « Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 01:13:46 am by ManiZ »

      ManiZ

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #20 on: Dec 26, 2010, 01:08:02 am »
      I should mention that when I called Yamaha to get this info a couple of days ago, the guy was dumbfounded and said he has no idea and that contacting Japan will do no good as it is secret info that Yamaha will not release. LOL!
      « Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 01:09:34 am by ManiZ »

      THUNDER

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #21 on: Dec 26, 2010, 01:16:08 am »
      Good write up sir,,,done your homework.....
      THUNDER
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      ManiZ

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #22 on: Dec 26, 2010, 01:28:21 am »
      Thank you. I am hoping it will help others who are in the same boat as me; wanting to buy heated gear or other electrical accessories and then finding out that not all bikes can support them. Great to know that the Raider is so well thought out that despite not being a full-on touring bike can handle pretty much any electrical item we can throw at it.

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #23 on: Dec 26, 2010, 02:20:27 am »
      with your info I set it as a sticky...
      THUNDER
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      TRaider_John

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #24 on: Dec 26, 2010, 06:51:44 am »
      CAUTION:  Although the "system" may be capable of it, be sure any load is also within the capacity of any fuse in the line of the supply to your heaters.  That fuse may be the limiting factor.
       
      The MAIN FUSE on the Raider is 20 amps (280 watts) and the accessory connector is (I think) only 3 amps (42 watts).  If you are connecting those new loads to the battery terminals with their own connections, ignore my caution. 

      Also note that the alternator rating is at 5000 rpm.  At rpm less than that it will not be able to generate that much power and you may be loading the battery at idle and lower rpm.  That could eventually drain the battery and leave you stranded.     

      ManiZ, please let us know how your project works out.     

      « Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 06:58:49 am by TRaider_John »

      ManiZ

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #25 on: Dec 26, 2010, 09:08:58 am »
      If you are connecting those new loads to the battery terminals with their own connections, ignore my caution. 

      You are exactly right and I'd like to clarify it for the readers as well since not understanding it can be a costly mistake.  A fuse's job is to protect the wiring from melting under severe load, so it sacrifices itself when the voltage exceeds the wiring's ability to handle it. That's why, for example, the factory 12v DC outlet under the Raider's seat is rated for a 3A max draw, anything higher and the fuse will blow. So the info I include above is ONLY for cases where your electrical accessories are directly wired to the battery.

      The Gerbing clothing, for example, comes with its own pigtail harness that must be wired to the battery. It is rated at 15A and will handle any clothing from that manufacturer that you can throw at it as long as the bike can (Raider certainly falls in that category).

      I was initially thinking of connecting my heated clothing to the Battery Tender pigtails already wired to my battery. Then I found a huge misconception online among users. You will commonly find this advice on other online forums (I saw it at Moto Guzzi, BMW, HD etc.): If you want to power the Gerbing clothing from your BT pigtails, go right ahead; just upgrade the built-in fuse in the BT wiring to 15A as that's what the Gerbing cable's fuse is rated at. HUGE MISTAKE, IMO. Because what that'll do is send up to 15A through the BT pigtails although that low-gauge wire can only handle 3A.

      If you want to use just one set of wires, the correct way to do it is to use the Gerbing harness and get rid of your BT pigtails. Then buy the SAE adapter cable Gerbing sells for $10 and leave that permanently hooked to the BT in your garage. Anytime you want to plug in the BT, it will connect right up to the Gerbing connector and do its job.
      « Last Edit: Dec 26, 2010, 09:11:53 am by ManiZ »

      ManiZ

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #26 on: Jan 27, 2011, 11:36:02 pm »
      Wanted to add an update. I have used my Gerbing's gear a handful of times so far, mostly to/from work in upper 20s to low 30s. Today I finally tested the charging system's ability to support it while idling.

      With the bike turned off, my battery usually reads between 12.9v-13.1v. Pulling into the garage after getting back from work today (i.e. fully warmed-up engine), I checked it while at idle and it read 13.8v, never varying more than +/- 0.1v over a few minutes. I then hooked up the heated gear and turned it up at the way, testing the battery every minute or two for 15 straight minutes while the bike idled (needed enough of a test period to notice the slowest drain, if any). Voltage never varied at all!

      Turning off the bike, I tested the battery and saw the same high 12s/low 13s as usual. To see how quickly the gear drains the battery with the charging system disengaged, I turned up the gear to max again (engine still off) with the voltmeter connected. Within 10 seconds, it dropped about 0.5v and kept that pace until I finally disconnected the gear after about 40 seconds.

      What that means is that an additional 104w drain (77w for jacket + 27w for gloves) on the system at idle RPMs does not drain the battery. It was reassuring to know for me personally, because I have never had to to turn the jacket above 1/3 of the way on the temp controller and the gloves above 1/2. It also means that even if someone is wearing all 4 pieces of Gerbing's gear and doesn't turn up the controller beyond about 60% of the way or so, the Raider will easily support it even at idle (104w/177w = 58%).

      And that's just with the two items I own. I will repeat it when I get the heated pants and insoles just to see whether the additional drain makes a difference at idle.

      I should emphasize that I am neither an EE nor an expert mechanic, this was just a test anyone with a voltmeter can conduct. Please don't take this as the final word by any means; your mileage could very well vary!

      Stay warm.

      v8_vega

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #27 on: Feb 01, 2011, 01:57:53 pm »
      Nice still! Thanks.

      Metric

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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #28 on: Feb 05, 2011, 11:18:11 pm »
      WOW...got my question answered...thanks guys :)
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      Re: 12 volt power
      « Reply #29 on: Feb 06, 2011, 08:45:12 am »
      The SNOTHOG has a heated seat, Mini Beast Air Horn, Cat Eyed Spot Lights, a 150 Watt Sound System, a Power Point for D/C charging of GPS and cell phone type gadgets, and I occasionally use my heated pants, jacket liner and gloves. No problem and no regrets!  :chopper:
      I go too far and too fast to ride a Harley! If you see my bike on a trailer call 911. A Corbin fairing, bags, heated seat, V-Rail and back rest, PC3, PR Air Kit, V&H BR, 5" Chopper's Surplus Z Bars, DWG sound system, Indian front fender, mucho Kuryakyn and Yammy bling,